tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2181153683994775767.post4091623044290303276..comments2024-01-28T20:15:30.773-05:00Comments on The Core Mechanic: Towards more Cinematic Gaming, Part 1 - RPG StatisticsJonathan Jacobshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06133232985480734844noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2181153683994775767.post-21743265575170521682010-01-26T20:11:03.182-05:002010-01-26T20:11:03.182-05:00@Warren - While I can't speak for Tom (he gues...@Warren - While I can't speak for Tom (he guest authored this post) - I'd be happy to take a peak at whatever you're working on Warren! Recently; I've been playing a lot of Savage Worlds - it's dice system is really nice, not flat at all... and with "Aces" (when you roll the max number on a die) you roll again and add it to the previous result (aka exploding dice). It adds a huge amount of randomness to things; for better and... for worse. =DJonathan Jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06133232985480734844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2181153683994775767.post-62436081765815598382010-01-26T20:04:10.453-05:002010-01-26T20:04:10.453-05:00I read this post with great interest, and will hav...I read this post with great interest, and will have to go through it again. I have no background in statistics and probabilities but I am working on my own game design and really want to try to find a playable version that models things effectively while remaining relatively easy to resolve and master. <br />I think I have my mechanics in a workable format and I am using Ueberdice to chart it out and see if it seems consistent enough. Do you think I might post you a summary of what I am working on and get some comments on it? I would like to hear your thoughts...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13889753024121036004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2181153683994775767.post-67977180883778681022009-05-11T03:38:00.000-04:002009-05-11T03:38:00.000-04:00Very nice statistical analysis, the more I read yo...Very nice statistical analysis, the more I read your work the more I think you're really going to appreciate the game I'm working on. Keep it up.Helmsmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05248835491973291242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2181153683994775767.post-67761244259911912452009-05-09T22:47:00.000-04:002009-05-09T22:47:00.000-04:00@ faustnotes
you cant reproduce one with d20 itsel...@ faustnotes<br />you cant reproduce one with d20 itself, but you can approximate one. If you want to have one exactly, thats basically white wolf's and shadowrun's system. DC's are no big matter, since you can change them to anything you want. the crit range can be 18+ (4% on 2d10) or 3d8 as Jon mentioned above.Tom Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397849745743592391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2181153683994775767.post-41860530570918684402009-05-09T19:10:00.000-04:002009-05-09T19:10:00.000-04:00I don't think you can reproduce a poisson distribu...I don't think you can reproduce a poisson distribution with any dice or combination thereof.<br /><br />I use 2d10, with no threat rolls. Some additional mechanics of my system mean I have open-ended rolls (so if you roll 20 you roll again and add) but for basic d20 system you don't need it.<br /><br />For basic d20 system, 2d10 with no threat rolls means:<br /><br />criticals occur 1% of the time<br />fumbles occur 1% of the time<br />the dice are stacked for middle value rolls<br /><br />the key thing when changing dice is to remember that DCs need to change to meet them. A DC of 20 is easier, and a DC of 25 harder, in 2d10 than in d20.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2181153683994775767.post-79241655106237101022009-05-09T00:41:00.000-04:002009-05-09T00:41:00.000-04:00OK this is going to be a long one but I do want to...OK this is going to be a long one but I do want to get to everyones questions now that I know I am goign to have a day off tomorrow.<br /><br />@ TheRecursionKing<br />I loved 2nd edition combat and tactics; that book was awesome. It was the seed which got me messing around with rules in the first place. Totally worth picking up off ebay if anyone ever gets a chance.<br /><br />@ Noumenon<br />You ideally want a mechanic that can adjust the lambda based on skill: a untrained fighter would be closer to a bell curve, thile a expert woudl have a heavy lambda skeq to the curve. This can be accomplished by letting a higher skilled character reroll numbers on EITHER d10 of a 2d10 roll: untrained, no rerolls. Basic: reroll 2's. Expert: reroll 2's and 3's. Master: Reroll 2's 3's and 4's. That shifts the average over. Then to lengthen the tail, extend out when the dice explode: ie: [Approximate] basic crit woudl be 18+ (6%), expert crit woudl be 17+ (10%), master would be 15+ (21%). Unfortunatley Jon did the graph with only rerolling 2's and only exploding the dice at 20 which would be less than basic training in the last example, so thats why it basically just looks bell curved. not his fault though, I was essentially unavailable all week. <br /><br />@ Jalepeno dude: ooh, they are kind of a big file and not all aspects are down in print, some are still in our noggins (such as out magic rules); but I'll pretty them up. Back in the day we used the iterative dice model starting with 2d10 and using exploding dice first used in 2nd edition combat and tactics like the firearms, but we used it for all weapons. Ended up very much like white wolf or shadowrun, though we were playing it way before vampire came out. It rocked. pick up an old 2nd edition shadowrun use them to play D&D. its fun) Right now were getting ready to start a simpler campaing closer to the d20 ruleset that uses the following [relatively] lighter variations: d20 where you add extra damage dice for every 5 you beat the ac by; AC is just based on size and dex; Armor is damage reduction. Your con bonus + 4 is your wound threshold; for every mutiple of this after your damage reduction it results in a mild, serious, or critical wound. Called shots can be declared to further add wounding effects. Hit points are now just "stamina points" and when gone you are simply two tired to fight on/unconcious, but you can take second winds just like in d20 Star wars Saga, and everyone starts out with a base of approximately 30 hp and level 3. Thus defeating an enemy quickly is more based on achieving serious and critical wounds, whether by high dmage weapons, rolling high hit numbers, or by called shot wound effects. We have playtested it and it runs smoothly once you practice a few combats; makes battles with big guys very tense and dramatic, with lots of assists to get hit rolls up high and achieve serious and wounds (cant fight with a broken femur). Peons go down rapidly in grisly fashions since their wound thresholds are fairly low. Gives a very cinmatic dichotomy of the large troll with the huge club (high dmaage weapon) vs the nimble assassin who can do very high damage or elevate the woudn category with a crefully placed called shot. DANG, I could go on and on but then this post woudl be 20 pages. <br /><br />@ Ameron - you are absolutely right: but note this - the 4E rule book is a couple hundred pages long... no matter how you dress your house rulset up it will still likely be less than 50 pages. Nevertheless, if your group isnt bored with the standard d20 ruleset, then keep having fun and save all this stuff for later! <br /><br />@ stormbringer<br />If your TN ws an 11, what if getting that 11 got you d8 on your longsword, getting 16 got you 2d8, and getting 21 got you 3d8, etc? then three things would happen: 1. You really could be james bond and drop that huge badass with your walther p47 if you rolled high enough. 2. You would have to be careful even with peons, because if they get lucky they can still do some serious damage; things like cover and planning an assault become more important.<br /><br />@ MJ Harnish<br />Yeah but modifyers are easy to change. just change em to fit the probability that woudl be appropriate! THis is what I did to approximate target numbers: as the GM make thee NPC's: a basic troop, a special ops one, and a grandmaster badass; see how high you can built their skills up to then set your easy/challenging/difficult target numbers such that you get 90%/60%/30% success rates that make intuitive sense. <br /><br />remeber! the whole goal is to make the mechanic more cinematic! Imagine a scene in a movie, or one you make up yorself that matches the level of reality/superhumannes you want in your campaign; then imagine how it should all work out ahead of time, then playtest/tweak/playtest till the rules can reproduce the outcome with the appropriate amount of reliability.Tom Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397849745743592391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2181153683994775767.post-59476834207931375662009-05-08T18:50:00.000-04:002009-05-08T18:50:00.000-04:00@ stormbringer - you are right, d20 disconnects hi...@ stormbringer - you are right, d20 disconnects hitroll and damage; thats why I dont like it. Instinctually I always wanted a 'good roll' to be a 'better hit' The d20 disconnect ends up making the game *feel* more arbitrary *to me*. I am curious if I am wierd of if anyone else feels the same. My post is all about changes that can be done to re-intertwine hitrol and damage to make the game feel more alive and less empty, if you feel like I do. But in no way do I think everyone *should* feel that way!Tom Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397849745743592391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2181153683994775767.post-19873687150302208332009-05-08T18:42:00.000-04:002009-05-08T18:42:00.000-04:00Sorry I couldnt reply earlyer, my job is ... extre...Sorry I couldnt reply earlyer, my job is ... extreme... at times; I promise I will get to all those comments tomorrow when I have a day off - I am really flattered at all the discussion!<br /><br />Anyway, Poisson distribution is a asymmetric distribution of # occurances on repetetive measurements, when the events have an inherent bias as opposed to purely random. ie: rare events, or when the operator/subject is doing somethign about it. It can predict the likelyhood of a given level of occurance. The sqewed-ness or bias is reflected by the lambda. The more bias, the more assymettrical the distribution is. It is by far the most common epidemilogical distribution in living life. In my grognard RPG experiences, dice models that duplicate these asymmetrical distributions feel much more 'alive'Tom Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397849745743592391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2181153683994775767.post-4706736240589516112009-05-07T15:15:00.000-04:002009-05-07T15:15:00.000-04:00It's odd how blog post topics seem to sometime...It's odd how blog post topics seem to sometimes sync up: http://rpg.brouhaha.us/?p=875<br /><br />I'm working on a different method to create an alternative system for the original D&D systems. I think I've just about got the kinks worked out so hopefully I'll get a chance to describe how it works (and start playtesting it) in the not so distant future.<br /><br />The problem with messing with the d20 with the D20 system (3rd & 4th ed) is that so much of the system is built upon that horrible, flat probability curve. For example, higher DCs become much more difficult to hit once you move away from the linear increase you see with a regular d20.<br /><br />2d10 works to create a pseudo-bell curve (2d20 is fascinating to me because it generates these two linear curves that meet at the mode which my gut tells me could be cool to fool with) which is nice but as Jonathan mentions the modifiers suddenly become very powerful. Hence the whole system gets thrown out of whack. The beauty of the system though is that suddenly critical hits (and misses) are actually meaningful because they occur much rarer than any other result.MJ Harnishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01806640038800982702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2181153683994775767.post-68785410853592519512009-05-07T14:57:00.000-04:002009-05-07T14:57:00.000-04:00I think that you are missing the part where rollin...I think that you are missing the part where rolling a d20 was just a pass/fail test, albeit with a different percentage than 50/50. You seem rather blinded by the idea that rolling a 20 is inherently better because it is higher than a 12. Not so for attacks and saves. One simply rolls higher than their target number, which becomes easier as the target decreases with level. There were no critical hits in the beginning, and there have never been critical saves. With the earlier editions, there were no degrees of bypassing the enemies' defences, you either did or you didn't. The damage roll determined how effective that was.<br /><br />So, you are starting with something of a misguided premise; if your target number is 11, then 20 is no better than 12. In fact, as you mention, the odds of getting either are exactly the same, hence, there is no solid reason to make rolling a 20 anything extraordinary.StormBringerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13093609703603909096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2181153683994775767.post-2512754782543559152009-05-07T14:34:00.000-04:002009-05-07T14:34:00.000-04:00This was a great article. I like the "higher math"...This was a great article. I like the "higher math" and the exploration into the probably of using different dice combinations. However, I think I'd have a really difficult time selling this to my gaming group. It just seems like an additional level of rules for them to learn with little additional benefit (from their point of view). Although I'm sure these changes work great once you get to know and understand them, it's getting over that initial hump of new rules that my group will frown on.<br /><br />I think this will work great for advanced players who are looking for something a little different. But for players who just want to kill monsters for a few hours a week, I think this is way more detail then they'll even need.Ameronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16166477531172343174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2181153683994775767.post-53862081462146069792009-05-07T13:09:00.000-04:002009-05-07T13:09:00.000-04:00Any chance of posting those house rules, or at lea...Any chance of posting those house rules, or at least the interesting dice mechanics in them?jalapeno_dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14889139723707552421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2181153683994775767.post-41664908338956375292009-05-07T09:32:00.000-04:002009-05-07T09:32:00.000-04:00The example Poisson graphs all have three or four ...The example Poisson graphs all have three or four different shapes depending on lambda. Which shape do you want?Noumenonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01597461989960782762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2181153683994775767.post-20122777471002370192009-05-07T09:28:00.000-04:002009-05-07T09:28:00.000-04:00Fire arms, in the Skill and Tactics AD&D 2nd e...Fire arms, in the Skill and Tactics AD&D 2nd edition book, also used 'exploding' dice, if you rolled maximum damage then you got to roll again for additional damage. I never used firearms in any of my campaigns though so don't really know how this felt when it was in use.Pete Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03438651595079082035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2181153683994775767.post-52871014031348728742009-05-07T09:01:00.000-04:002009-05-07T09:01:00.000-04:00I'll jump in here; since I'm not sure how long it ...I'll jump in here; since I'm not sure how long it will take for Tom to reply. <br /><br />A Poisson Distribution approximates a number of events over a time interval. It's a descrete probability distribution; think of it like a tally of counts over time... it has a skewed tail. Here's what they look like:<br /><br /><A HREF="http://www.itl.nist.gov/div898/handbook/eda/section3/eda366j.htm" REL="nofollow">http://www.itl.nist.gov/div898/handbook/eda/section3/eda366j.htm"</A>To be fair, I added some of the graphics to the post above (Tom's still learning the Blogger platform). But, in my opinion, I would rather not see a Poisson for gaming and prefer a "long tail" distribution such as something called an extreme value distribution. In an EVD, there IS a chance that you can get a rediculously huge outlyier in the results (like... the arrow hit the orc in the eye, or the Fireball spell fed off the campfire and literally exploded the tree). <br /><br />This is what EVD's look like:<br />(look at the second distribution shown)<br /><A HREF="http://www.itl.nist.gov/div898/handbook/eda/section3/eda366g.htm" REL="nofollow">http://www.itl.nist.gov/div898/handbook/eda/section3/eda366g.htm</A>Now... to get a "long tail" distribution for dice rolling, you would have to have 1) a pool of dice that are summed (like 3d8; which is my preferance, alone these would provide a Normal distribution); and 2) and an extreme success mechanic - like; if you roll an 8 on any of the dice, roll another d8 or something. I think shadowrun used to have a system like that.Jonathan Jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06133232985480734844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2181153683994775767.post-84416591238030236192009-05-07T08:47:00.000-04:002009-05-07T08:47:00.000-04:00I was going to complain that you never actually ex...I was going to complain that you never actually explained the Poisson distribution, but I went to Wikipedia and they don't really explain it either. The idea I'm getting is that it's what a binomial distribution looks like when it's just getting started, and only the right tail is showing.Noumenonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01597461989960782762noreply@blogger.com